Episode 44 – Brains, Behaviour & the Big Cat within Rewiring Vet Med for Fulfilment

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In this week’s episode:

• Interrupt the autopilot – 95% of behaviour runs from the subconscious. Learn to pause between think–feel–do – a single deep breath or quick body scan can interrupt the fight-or-flight cascade and let you choose a calmer, more constructive response.
• Lead energy before strategy – Before setting targets or KPIs, check the team’s capacity. Great leaders manage emotional tone and energy levels, not just workloads. Start meetings with an energy check-in or one-word mood round to see where your team really is.
• Know your inner cat (and your team’s) – Use Libby’s Big Cat Brain model – Cheetah (innovator), Tiger (precision), Lion (connector), Leopard (stabiliser) – to map your team’s natural styles. Then assign roles that play to each brain’s strengths instead of forcing everyone to lead or think the same way.
• Tame your brain to reclaim fulfilment– Fulfilment isn’t accidental – it’s trained. Drop perfectionism, replace people-pleasing with boundaries, and remind yourself daily: version one is better than version none. Self-leadership starts with choosing how you think and feel first.

A fast-paced, practical conversation with Dr. Libby Kemkaran-Thompson on how neuroscience and her “Big Cat Brain” model help veterinary leaders manage stress, align teams, and build genuinely fulfilling careers.

Additional Guest Spotlights

• Recommend Resource: This episode we hear from Francesca Verney. Francesca reminds our veterinary community that inspiration doesn’t have to come from within our own walls. She encourages us to explore business podcasts, books, and stories from other industries, where innovation often moves faster. By looking outward and bringing those ideas home, we can spark fresh thinking, strengthen our teams, and keep our profession evolving together.
  
• Next Episode Sneak Peak: We’re joined by Alice Hendy, MBE, founder and CEO of Ripple Suicide Prevention, who shares how she transformed personal tragedy into a life-saving digital tool – and why empathy, technology, and timely intervention can change the future of mental health support.
  
  

Show Notes

• Out every other week on your favourite podcast platform.
• Presented by Jack Peploe: Veterinary IT Expert, Certified Ethical Hacker, CEO of Veterinary IT Services and dog Dad to the adorable Puffin.
• Libby ran a Business Development consultancy company in the city, before she retrained as a vet. She spent 5yrs in small animal first opinion, before a dramatic car crash took away her ability to perform surgery.
• She began to coach vets instead, regained her mobility and qualified as a Peak Performance coach and Flow Consultant then started winning awards for herself. Executive Coaching, Business Consultancy, Leadership and Communications training, and support of female entrepreneurship.
• After a degree in Behaviour at Cambridge she created the first vet profiling tool called the ‘Big Cat Brain’ based on combining the Neuroscience of success with the art of fulfilment.
• Libby now delivers her ‘Tame Your Team’ programs around the world, and speaks at conferences and retreats on Leadership, Communications and Neuroscience of the Mindset for Success in her ‘Big Cat Brain’ neuroprofile product and ‘Tame your Brain’ executive coaching tools.

Transcription

Jack Peploe:

Coming up on modern veterinary practice,

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Suddenly realise so much of behaviour is biochemical. Which of it comes from this? It’s think, feel. Do you start a think that just pops into your brain? You don’t know where it comes from, but it’s usually subconscious. 95% of everything we do every day is from the subconscious brain, which is crazy. And why? Because we didn’t die yesterday. So our brain has got this set up and it’s like a hard wiring behind your eyes to keep you alive because your brain is designed to keep you alive. Not happy is the point, which is terrifying. So we are a little machines walking around on the planet just trying to stay alive and so we can be miserable as sin. And so I started figuring out that, oh my God, it’s actually my job. It’s my job to feel good no matter what happens to me.

Jack Peploe:

Welcome to the Modern Veterinary Practice Podcast. I’m your host and veterinary IT expert, Jack Pepler. In this episode, I’ll be welcoming Dr. Libby Cameron Thompson, behavioural strategist, executive coach, and creator of the Big Cat Brain Tool. We’ll be talking about how understanding human behaviour and neuroscience can transform leadership, teamwork, and fulfilment within veterinary practice, helping teams not just to perform better, but to truly thrive

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

The interview. Hi, I’m Dr. Libby. I am always focused on why people do what they do. I’ve got 20 years’ experience in figuring that out. I’m still figuring it out. I’m an executive coach and creator of the big kept brain tool, which blends the art of fulfilment with the neuroscience of success. And I am mother to three semi feral domestic long hair children and several insane cats. What else would you like to know?

Jack Peploe:

Ah, no, that’s fantastic. Do, it’s honestly so great to have you on the To Guys’ podcast. How are you today anyway, before we get cracking? Yeah,

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Really good, thank you. We’re about to do the pack the car and go on holiday, so this is a lovely moment of sanity before it open. Oh,

Jack Peploe:

Nice. So I, where are you going before we jump in?

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Well, we’re Brighton to see the eldest semi feral domestic long hair child finish their first year at university, which is hilarious. Amazing because that means I’m really a grownup now and I should start acting like one.

Jack Peploe:

I’m the other end of the spectrum. But anyway, you’ve had a career that defies convention from business development consultancy to veterinary surgery to executive coaching, as you said. And somehow you’ve very thread it all together with a fascination for behaviour in the brain. Now today I’d love to explore why understanding how we think is such a powerful key to creating not just better veterinary teams but more fulfilling bey careers. I’m hoping we’ll sort of cover off things like leadership, team dynamics, behavioural profiling, and maybe a little bit of T history if we’re lucky. Does that sound all okay?

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

I think we start with Amberly and we work forward from there. So let’s go.

Jack Peploe:

Amazing. Alright, well look, you said behaviour is always designed to solve a problem, not be a problem. That’s kind of a really provocative idea. Can you unpack what that means in the context of vet me teams?

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

I learned this with kids. I think being a parent is one of the biggest crash courses in humans you will ever get Jack. So good luck, good luck. But it’s taught me so much because when you look at a child having a complete toddlers dropout, and by the way, you’re always that parent that sees it often in the supermarket and you go, my child would never do, does exactly that, and you go, holy crap, this is actually really difficult. And then I started, I got really excited when I did a degree in the neural mechanisms of behaviour and I suddenly realised so much of behaviour is biochemical. So much of it comes from this. It’s think, feel, do you start a think that just pops into your brain? You don’t know where it comes from, but it’s usually subconscious. 95% of everything we do every day is from the subconscious brain, which is crazy. And why, because we didn’t die yesterday. So our brain has got this set up and it’s like a hard wiring behind your eyes to keep you alive because your brain is designed to keep you alive. Not happy is the point, which is terrifying.

So we’re a little machines walking around on the planet just trying to stay alive and so we can be miserable as sin. And so I started figuring out that, oh my God, it’s actually my job. It’s my job to feel good no matter what happens to me to feel good, even when to feel good. And obviously I’ve run many businesses over the years and businesses hugely emotional. It’s hugely emotional and you get these waves of things that happen and you’ve got to have the capacity to hold that. So I got excited when I then started applying this to veterinary teams because I think nobody, I don’t think I’ve met a single vet that can put their hand up and say, I went into this for the money. Anybody in the veterinary space is deliberately waking up one morning and going, I know I’ll do a six year or five-year degree course in order to make the most money possible.

They go into it, they have this burning desire to help, but then they build a business and then they get a team and then they find out how bloody annoying people can be. And then it becomes all about managing behaviours, behaviours of clients, behaviours of team and behaviours of self. Because leading yourself for me was one of the hardest lessons that I had in business. If I don’t get my own thoughts straight, I don’t help lead my people and I don’t get the results. So in a very long answer to a very short question, the reason I get so excited about this passion for people power, this passion for getting to understand behaviour is because it’s what generates the money. It’s what generates the results. And that is so exciting that we can turn the dial by making people happy. And that to me feels like a brilliant way to spend my time on this planet.

Jack Peploe:

Couldn’t agree more. I couldn’t agree more. Now I’m going to talk about the elephant in the room in relation to veterinary and that sort of burnout and stress being so common in the profession. But you talk a lot about fulfilment. What does fulfilment actually look like from a neurological standpoint and how do we help more vets find that

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

It’s fight or flight? So I run a container called fight or flight club for this reason because we go into fight or flight automatically, you don’t have a choice. You’re amygdala kicks in hard in 0.7 seconds. We are hardwired to respond to a threat. The trouble is our brain hasn’t evolved in the millions of years and we know no difference from a saber-tooth tiger leaping up to eat your face than an angry email from a client or a strawberry teammate who’s just glanced out the room. And these calls the same reactions in the brain. We are absolutely creatures of biochemistry and that neurological switch happens so fast you can’t interrupt it. So I said, think, feel, do earlier. But what actually happens is the think and a feel overlaid, we think a thought, we feel a feeling, and some people feel a feeling and think a thought.

So there’s left brain and right brain and depending on which way your wiring is, and in my world that looks like cheetah line, leopard or tiger, depending on which way you’re wired, you just go there. You don’t have a choice. And so subtly you’re at the mercy of all these washes of biochemistry. So the way that we have to actually think about behaviour is not only is it designed to solve a problem, but it’s designed to solve the wrong frigging problem. It’s literally heading towards something that that client is not going to eat you. It’s not going to eat your face. Hopefully it’s not going to eat your face. But there have been, but there’s this horrible propensity for the body to just go there. So we get the heart help, we know this, we get that rush of adrenaline and that causes your muscles to tighten up so you can run away really fast or punch in the face, neither of which are useful right now, but that’s what it’s doing.

And so fight or flight, this sympathetic nervous drive that just kicks in hard is what we actually have to learn to interrupt. And that takes effort because it’s easy to feel good when you feel good. It’s incredibly difficult to feel good when you feel threatened, judged, bullied, embarrassed, shame, guilt. There’s a whole big wash of what we call the bad emotions. And there are room for mad bad out of blood. That’s it. That’s it. But in that bad pot, there are lots, there’s lots of layers. And so once we know, and this is what I coach people on that are leaders, we work from making the habits for them and their wiring really precise so that you can interrupt that cascade and suddenly we’re no longer at the mercy, we’re liberated from that slavery to the biochemical washes.

Jack Peploe:

No, that’s amazing. You’ve referenced cats quite a few times and so you’ve created this the big cat brain model as I think a way to understand working styles. Yes. What inspired that and how can knowing your inner cat help you be a better vet leader or say team member

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Because, and this is my little humble brag here, Jack, I’m going to give you my favourite moment this week, one of my clients and she runs a multimillion veterinary hospital out in Dubai, and she flies in to see me regularly and I fly out and train her team. One of my clients this week told me she’s getting a cheetah tattooed in honour of how much she understands herself. Now no one goes out and gets INFP tattooed on their arm. No one gets red tattooed on their arm. So there are lots of profile tools out there, which I referenced just two. I’m actually trained in five before I built my own and all the tools out there. What I realised was when I dived in, because this is what I do, my brain type is heavy cheetah, I think you are the same. I think you are more tied than me. I’ll explain that in a minute because you are more the detail in the data and the precision, right? But you’ve also got that world crazy innovative. Screw it, let’s try, let’s see how it works, and then I’ll lift the bonnet and tweak and we’ll do it again,

Right? But you hate going backwards and you hate having to, you like reinvention, but you don’t like repetition. So that have I got you right? Have I got you right?

Jack Peploe:

You nailed that.

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Okay, good. So that’s high. That’s up here. That’s the cheetah and the tiger. I’m cheetah to lion, so I love to innovate, but what do I do it with is people not tech. So I go round to that pride that people all together, hugging people that live together, eat together, sleep together. I want to know your story. Tell me all about you tell me everything. So I’m all the way around here. So I’m fully right brain, so I’m right emotional. Whereas you’re a beautiful mix of left logical and right emotional. So you can do either think, feel or feel, think depending on which situation you are in.

Jack Peploe:

That’s interesting.

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

I have to do feel, think I have to do it that way because that’s how I’m wired. And then down the bottom end, we’ve got the leopard, the leopards that and the leopards listening going, she hasn’t mentioned me, but that’s okay, I’ll just wait. She’ll come to my bit in a minute. Because the leopard’s got no ego. They’re the opposite of you and I, right? So we run up here, we are fast. Our brain is like, let’s go, let’s go. I’m going to make my crazy idea happen. Yes, it’s completely illogical. No, no one understands what I’m doing, but I’m doing it anyway, let’s go. So we will sort of bring people along with that energy. The leopard’s the opposite. They’re in a tree, they’re watching and they’re looking at the African savanna, they’re seeing the cheetahs bombing around. They’re looking at the tigers being that precise padding through the jungle, that slow steady pursuit of goal.

They see the lions hugging everybody and God, they’ve got so many friends and the leopard lab going, what do I do? And actually the leopard holds that whole thing together because they are the doers. They’re the ones that create the systems and the processes behind and they hold the beat the drum, they hold the timing, whereas us chee to rubbish with timing, you can give me a to-do list and I’ll look at it and go, yeah, I totally agree, and then I’ll ignore it. And then one of my team picks up the phone and goes, Libby, you said you’d call Mrs. Jones at three and it’s now half past nine at night. And I’m like, oh, is it? And so whereas the leopards hold that precision for us and you can hear it. The reason I built this tool, Jack is because the other profiling tools are quite dry.

They’re clinical and I felt that we needed some. And in the veterinary world, I created the first veterinary specific profiling tool. I created one that was about this personification into animals because we get that right? We understand that. And usually we know enough about the audible kingdom to recognise those types. We recognise the tiger walks alone. We recognise the lion lives together. We recognise the leopard sits in that tree watching and waiting before leaping out and going into heavy pursuit. And we see the cheetah bombing about zigzagging all over the place, getting knackered and then crashing out a sleeping sun. We’re either go, go, go or a stop We. That’s what I was Cheetah. And the veterinary industry is about roughly in my experience, and I pray for big rooms of up to like 300 bits at a time. They’re roughly 70% tiger brain.

But the business leaders tend to be a lot in that cheetah zone. And so there’s a lot of fast pursuit and what they need often is to understand why their behaviours come out like they do and then how to bring team along with them. So that’s also what the big kept brain tool is for, is a way of getting, so if you imagine a team of huskies pulling in different directions, the search goes nowhere. We’ve got to get them pulling together and align behind the ideas. So getting that unity with a leader is part of leadership as well. We’ve got to be able to communicate our ideas. So there are very precise different communication stars in a big kept brain. There’s very different ways of speaking.

Jack Peploe:

No, a hundred percent. Then actually I want to jump on that one because you reframed leadership as not just about strategy, but also in that case about energy. What does that look like in practice and how can leaders begin to manage their team’s energy, not just their output?

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Yeah, you’re so right and it’s strategy, it’s unity, it’s communications, and then it’s this energy or capacity piece. Those are the cornerstones to leadership and to lead anyone else who’ve got to first understand them, people have got to feel seen, heard, and understood before they’ll let you take them anywhere if they don’t feel seen, heard and understood, game over, game over human behaviour relies on that empathy first. And again, that’s why the first thing I do when I go into a team, we had a product called the team x-ray. All of my words have this little hook on them. And the team x-ray is about getting the clarity first of who am I working with? Who’s in what chair? What is their brain trying to do, trying to do something. The cheat is always trying to think about, that’s their overarching question. Tigers think, how am I doing that?

So your brain jerk goes between that and how what’s needed here and then, okay, how do we do our best? And that’s where the innovation comes from. And that’s why you’re going to always be ahead of the perp. You’re always thinking, what’s next? Not now, what’s next? Where’s it going? Where’s that? And you’re looking. And cheetahs can zoom out and see miles ahead. They can see miles and it’s real to them. Whereas down here on the ground, they’re going, what are you talking about that doesn’t even exist yet? And you’re like, but it will just watch. And then guess what it does. So your questions drive your behaviours, and the lying question is who? And the leopard question is when and where? Give me the timing, give me the details and the targets is how Very good. So when we understand those questions, when we see where people are coming from, suddenly we can lead them because that’s what they want to know from us.

There’s no point talking to a tiger about the who. They get bored and don’t give into small talk. Give me your bullet points, give me your data, come on, I want to know that bit. Whereas a line will walk in the room and go, oh hi, how’s your weekend? And they’re just like, who even are you do I know, you tell me what I need to know. Can we cuts the chase? So we get these huge clashes in veterinary teams because obviously some of the profession, when we look at this three tier structure, and I work in other industries as well, I’ve been external consultant for Merck Pharmaceutical, for example, MSD, animal health and going in and training their sales force and communications and sales behaviour. And it’s different in other industries, but in veterinary, we’ve got this weird three-way split between vets, nurse, other, and it tends to attract different types. So we get different brain pockets and this team will be heavy in leopard and this team over here will be heavy in tiger. They do the clinical veterinary. So they’re doing the precision and the detail and the data. Whereas over here, they’re the fluffy stuff, the front desk, the soft skills, is it disparagingly called? It’s not soft at all. Hardest job in the world is running people,

Francesca Verney:

But

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

It gets dismissed by tiger brains who don’t quite understand it as much. So getting it across grid communication is actually the hardest piece in teams getting this gang over here to understand this gang. So that’s why I use C as well, because no one ever has to tell a cat to be more cat, right? They are just intrinsically so much cat and they’re so happy being cat. And they look at you as they push something off the table and they’re looking at me this like, what are you going to do make me? And they just do it. And the biggest thing that we cripple ourselves with in human societies is we try and be somebody else. We try and put a mask on. We try and look like what we think success looks like. So we use this phrase art of fulfilment a lot, but the art of fulfilment is starting with self.

And that’s where it always starts with self-leadership. And that’s why all the leaders that I coach, the first thing we do is their profile and then we dive deep into their subconscious coding. What’s running behind your eyes? What are your early experiences? We form the model of the world falls roughly between the age of seven and nine and women roughly between the age of eight and 11 and folks. And that forms your map. People are I am we are. They form our experiences. And that gets locked, that gets hardwired in. And from there we form our attitudes around us. And then from our attitudes and our traits, we form our life map. And so all of our options get solely limited. We are born in complete growth mindset. And by the time we get to about 14, 15, we’ve got, well, I can do this and I can’t do that. And some of us end up leaving school because of it because told no, you can’t do that by other people. And I think you and I both gone up and left, didn’t we? And just be somewhere else.

Jack Peploe:

That’s very cool. And I mean, because I know you are sort of a vocal supporter of women in leadership and entrepreneurship, which is amazing. What are some of the most common mindset traps you see female professionals fall into and how can they reclaim their voice?

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

There’s two big ones. There’s two really huge ones. One is I’m not enough and the other is, therefore I won’t be loved. Those are the biggest wounds that we have as the human animal that we are. And as we said earlier, all behaviour is designed to solve a problem. We then fall into people pleasing. We fall into trying to show that we are good enough rather than that core alignment that comes from self knowing that you’re good enough. And so we then move into behaviours that are crippling for business that are absolutely destructive. If you’re trying to run a business, you cannot be a people pleaser. You just can’t. If you’re a leadership, you can’t be a people pleaser. You’ll sacrifice profits, you’ll sacrifice your happiness if you are there desperately trying to please people. So everything comes back to money, sex, power, that’s it. Those are our drivers in life. We always steer towards money, sex, power. But what happens in females is we mask heavily, and especially in entrepreneurship, we play the Good Girl card. There’s the Disney myth of the noble core. Don’t earn too much. You can’t be rich and kind. Don’t be too clever. You can’t be clever and kind and have money. If you notice, we get pocketed into this good girl mask. And so I run a Facebook group Veterinary Entrepreneur training club, which I think we’re up to like 900 members now. It’s hilarious.

Jack Peploe:

Wow.

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Yeah. And we’ve got a lovely gang of people that have gone to set up yoga businesses and other people have started writing workshops and other people have Chloe Hannigan runs Vet Yogi. She went through one of our early courses, brilliant businesses like that, a life giving and affirming and supporting the industry in different ways around this big elephant in the room of burnout. But to do that, they’ve got to get out of their own way. They’ve got to believe they’re enough. And so you have to start, and this is the hardest thing with that. There’s a big bunch of perfection thought at one place, and we’ve got to get them to believe version one is one step nearer to version done. Even if it’s not perfect, just move. Just go. Just get going. Just start. Just start anywhere because then version one is that’s step near to version done.

Jack Peploe:

No, I love that. I think this answers the question I really was keen to ask is if you could whisper that one short sentence into the ear of every vet starting their shift tomorrow, would it be that?

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Do you know what? There’s a reason why brand’s called Tame Your Brain Jack. It has to be tame your brain, where else? No one else can access this. Six inches between your ears. Best six inches you’ll ever play with Lady. This is where it starts. This is where it’s got to go. We’ve got to get in here because no one else can get there. And do you know what? When you die and the credits roll on your life, there will be a line that says, and voices in Libby’s Heard also played by Libby. It’s you. It’s you shouting away to yourself. Oh my God, I can’t, surely no one will like it if I do. What if I do that? Oh no, that’ll be disas. It’s you. It’s just you. And honestly, we get 99 turns around the sum. There’s no rewind button. And as far as I know, there’s not a do over button either.

So we’ve got to make it count. And this has got to be good, right? This has got to be fun. Otherwise what’s the point? If it’s just for the end point, you’re not going to enjoy the journey because we start playing that when then game of when I get there, then I’ll be happy when I achieve this goal, then I’ll cut that. Just get inside your own brain and work out how to make yourself happy now in the moment now. Because when you do that, then whatever happens, we don’t fear what happens to us in life and fear. Can I handle this? Can I hold this? Have I got the capacity for this? And leadership to me comes back to that massive piece of right, how do I handle this? How do I handle what’s happening now? And that relates to people, that relates to clients, that relates to world events. And that locus of control, that central point which, okay, I can control this, what can I control? It’s here. It’s inside your ears. And

Jack Peploe:

That’s it. I couldn’t agree more. Well, Libby, look, I can’t believe the time. It’s always the case always goes so quickly. Always we know this. But look, this has been an absolutely mind expanding conversation. Thank you so much for bringing your insights, your energy, and your perspective as a podcasts. Really, really interesting stuff. Now for those listening who wants to learn more about your work or explore the big Cat brain or tone your Brain tools, where is the best place people can find

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

You? Luckily, my surname is ridiculous, Jack, so you can just Google that and it comes up and that’s really easy. But equally, Tam Your Brain is my website for all of the work that I do. And Tam, your team is my website for all work that I do going into veterinary teams and delivering that training. And I do both of those contact forms. Or you could find me on social media as Libby, Kim, Karen, or Dr. Libby. Katie.

Jack Peploe:

Amazing. Well, Libby, thank you so much. It’s been so, so fun having on the podcast.

Libby Kemkaran-Thompson:

Lovely to talk to you, Jack. Thank you so much for having me.

Alice Hendy:

Recommended resources.

Jack Peploe:

Every week we ask professionals and experts to suggest a best business resource for our listeners. This week’s recommendation is from Francesca Verney.

Francesca Verney:

It’s tricky. I think probably actually non veterinary resources. I try and do quite a lot of listening to other business podcasts and reading other books and looking at it because I think’s an industry we’re wonderful, but we are quite sweet and quite insular and we are good at doing things in the same way as we’ve always done because animals kind of need fixing in the same way, but other industries can appear more innovative and pioneering. And I think we are still playing catch up. So I’ve enjoyed looking at the business journeys in lots of other big or small or interesting brands, and that’s where I quite like to spend my

Jack Peploe:

Coming up Next week, we welcome Alice Hendy, MBE, founder, and CEO of Ripple Suicide Prevention. After losing her brother Josh into 2020, Alice transformed unimaginable grief into a lifesaving mission, creating a digital tool that intervenes when people search for harmful content. Online we discuss how empathy can drive technology, the power of a pause in a moment of crisis, and the urgent need for regulation and responsibility in the digital space. Alice also shares her journey of balancing cybersecurity with suicide prevention and how Ripple is expanding to support wider mental health challenges.

Alice Hendy:

I lost Josh on the 25th of November, 2020. He was 21 years old when he decided he didn’t want to be here anymore, and Josh was my only sibling. And if I’m being completely honest, it is without doubt the worst thing that could have ever happened to me in my life, which makes the world quite a scary place actually, because anything else that happens to me now is nothing really in comparison to what’s already taken place. When I looked through my brother’s devices after he did take his life, I was looking for answers. I was looking for why’s, why was this his decision? What was so bad in his life that he believed this was his best option? And when I did that, I found that he had been going on the internet and he’d been searching for how he could end his life.

Jack Peploe:

That’s it for this episode. All links and recommendations we talked about are in the show notes. Don’t forget to subscribe and share the podcast if you found it useful. In the meantime, thanks for listening and see you next time.